CLOUD HOSTING: THE TRUTH????

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Posted by Uzii, 06-20-2011, 02:08 AM
So i have been seeing all this hype and talk about cloud hosting...wasn't that interested till today...searched through many threads in this forum and many articles on the internet...read some amazing advantages of cloud hosting...and some disadvantages too...nothing is perfect..but the advantages had over taken the advantages.. theoretically and practically speaking the concept of cloud hosting is acceptable...the way it works and everything it makes sense...but their are some problems that are persisting in the cloud hosting market..as i said i read through the threads in WHM and found out that some hosts claim to be clouds when they are nothing more than just a VPS with a software... As every customer who is new to a product got questions...i also have mine...i don't really get the concept of handling traffic when it comes to cloud...for an instant in a shared hosting, reseller or VPS you cannot exceed a certain allowed limit...for example 25% CPU usage...the three mentioned plans are not suitable at all for handling traffic..how is it possible for cloud to handle traffics???is it because of the architecture or because it has no usage limits when it comes to physical resources??? Can you recommend some reliable cloud hosts, with different hosting plans and also with green eco friendly initiatives Thank you
Posted by nel$on, 06-20-2011, 02:20 AM
Vps.net comes to mind when you are seeking a true cloud. Some hosts use Cloud Linux OS, and claim it is a cloud, hehe.
Posted by Uzii, 06-20-2011, 02:26 AM
They don't provide reseller hosting nah...cloudweb seems to have all kind of plans what do you think of them...i want to start small..
Posted by nel$on, 06-20-2011, 02:28 AM
What do you mean reseller hosting? VPS.net has an extremely awesome reseller program, and even their own WHMCS module.
Posted by MyResellerHost, 06-20-2011, 05:42 AM
Do you mean cloud reseller hosting?
Posted by Uzii, 06-20-2011, 05:46 AM
yes i meant cloud reseller hosting..
Posted by boskone, 06-20-2011, 05:54 AM
Most cloud providers support resellers / channel. As has been mentioned, many also offer modules for hostbill, WHMCS and detailed APIs you can easily white label...
Posted by Host Tounsi, 06-20-2011, 06:02 AM
I think you can start with a normal reseller in the normal environment that we worked with it for years .... But, if you like to be comfortable and avoid many problems and downtimes, you can buy a reseller hosting in cloud servers... We are all know that 80 % of providers ( that they say cloud hosting ) use just some softwares that they have the characteristic of the true Cloud server ... So, some providers now use CloudLinux Os to keep the servers up because it's not like the shared hosting ; ever site have his private environment ....
Posted by ZKuJoe, 06-20-2011, 06:13 AM
You want the truth? http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/the_cloud.png
Posted by ninkynonk, 06-20-2011, 06:37 AM
amazon ec2 makes people hate cloud hosting.
Posted by acidburn82, 06-20-2011, 06:59 AM
Yeah, the cloud thing is confusing. We for example are renting vmware virtual servers. From the beginning of our business we offered them as simple vmware server rental, but then, when the market has become more "cloudy", we realized that we have the cloud already. All the virtual machines are migrating if something goes wrong and the storage is also as a cloud of many NAS servers. That's a cloud for me. Of course it depends on the software and other things, but with wm we are very "cloudy". Cloud quality is other thing.. there could be that there isn't full cloud infrastructure, like storage or WAN conns...
Posted by Uzii, 06-20-2011, 07:01 AM
I was thinking of going with a normal reseller...but the benefit cloud hosting gives is so immense that i wont mind spending extra bucks...but then like you said many claim their cloud but actually its all software and application they use to virtualize and only few have the proper cloud architecture... I've seen some bad reviews of them... what am i supposed to do???
Posted by MyResellerHost, 06-20-2011, 07:06 AM
Being with a normal reseller and cloud with both cPanel/WHM isn't much change. Perhaps because I'm used with the panel. You must think of the reliability and how stable their cloud is because if not, you'll end up having downtimes instead of it's promising statements.
Posted by ninkynonk, 06-20-2011, 07:10 AM
simple... don't host there and find a really good cloud host.
Posted by Uzii, 06-20-2011, 07:13 AM
I was considering to go with HOSTGATOR as they have different plans that give me room to growth...they have ups and downs but provide good customer support...well i was wondering about cloud for sometime...and felt it would be better to post and get the feedback from WHM.. Like you said the panels are same and nothing much different...but doesn't a cloud provide better flexible functions than a normal reseller??? I was thinking of going with CLOUDWEB...does anyone know about them???
Posted by jweeb, 06-20-2011, 07:18 AM
To simplify it, a true Cloud Hosting is like Dedicated Hosting. There is dedicated processors, dedicated hard disk space, dedicated RAM, etc. It has an added advantage of allowing these resources to be flexible (i.e. to be increased or decreased along the way).
Posted by ninkynonk, 06-20-2011, 07:41 AM
Yep and that's a really cool thing about it. and when it's used properly it's awesome!
Posted by Uzii, 06-20-2011, 10:00 AM
What do you mean by along the way????
Posted by ninkynonk, 06-20-2011, 10:12 AM
that is called "elastic" part of cloud hosting.... let's say you have a burst of traffic during the holidays or an event (like a sale) and you want to scale up so your site can handle the load.... and when that promo is over the site traffic goes down some... instead of paying for that full load and wasting money, you can scale back and save money that way. a good cloud host should be able to keep your site online during all adjustments and provisions without any hiccups.
Posted by Uzii, 06-20-2011, 10:15 AM
Exactly what i am looking for..thats y i am prefering cloud over a normal hosting...but i exactly don't understand how this scaling takes place...can u explain it to me with an example and some hosts...please it will be a big favour
Posted by coolking, 06-20-2011, 10:21 AM
Hmmm... there diffrent kinds of clouds you have clouds like eyeOS and clouds like a vps hosting witch 1 u mean?
Posted by Uzii, 06-20-2011, 10:26 AM
according to what i know VPS hosting is more physical right??? If so then i meant VPS hosting
Posted by coolking, 06-20-2011, 10:41 AM
VPS is like a virtual computer that runs 24/7. A windows vps starts at 512 MB. The OS is windows server 2003 or windows server 2008 You will get VNC access that you can control it. The other is just a web OS that you can upload on your webhost and edit your files. I hope this helps, Coolking
Posted by ninkynonk, 06-20-2011, 10:45 AM
That is up to the host and what tech they use. Typically they would go into the VM's control panel (cloud hosting is ran like VPS but only the hardware resides "in the cloud" so they have the servers, the SANs, the load balancers, etc...) and add more RAM, for example very easily and if they have it configured right, without shutting the VM down and this will leave your site online. (This adds redundancy and fault tolerance as well. This is easier then a dedicated server that would need to be taken down to perform the hardware upgrade. Good platforms are something liek Applogic, VMware's cloud software, and OnApp. VPSes typically reside on just one physical server and it's split up.
Posted by Uzii, 06-20-2011, 10:57 AM
It helped me and i got your point.. Got it...thanks alot guys...well i really understood everything about cloud, the only thing i did'nt get was scalable feature...now i am starting to understand a little by little with your help...can some one recommend me some cloud hosters...it would be better if they have a reseller plan also
Posted by boskone, 06-20-2011, 12:12 PM
On the right platform, you should be able to add CPU and RAM to your server while it is running (not even needing a reboot for upgrades)! This is one of the cool features of cloud
Posted by Chris - Whitesystem, 06-20-2011, 12:44 PM
Have you considered SpeedySparrow? as far as I know they offer Cloud Reseller Hosting at amazing prices
Posted by majorpay, 06-20-2011, 01:48 PM
The real truth about the cloud: While yes, the cloud has "elastic hosting," the cloud is actually a buzz word that is being used in the business to justify charging you a MINIMUM of double for what you had before. Take for instance a standard VPS at 3GB RAM, dual core CPU @2.4Ghz and 60Gb VHD and Windows 2008. Potential cost per month? $170 at a good hosting company with fairly decent support and free setup, or $100 depending on the special (actual quote). Take those same specs to a "cloud" for guaranteed resources, and here's what you get: No to little support other than making sure you are running, $159 "setup fee," and $479 month (actual quote from major hosting provider). And if you are lucky enough to happen to go beyond those resources, tack on another $25-$30 per Gb of RAM used, and another $20 per 20Gb VHD space, and at a point, they increase the increments and the pricing structure scales upwards. But they tell you that you only pay for what you use, so it's a good deal. What they push under the table is at minimum specs (well below this quote), their starting price is $169. You do the math on these "savings." If you let the thing idle, you save $1 compared to your VPS. If you're even more lucky, you get a pay by the hour "cloud" which means you will be charged for every minute you use the machine based on how much that machine's processors and RAM are utilizing. As far as I'm concerned, cloud has become synonymous with "rape," but if you package it in a "fluffy" word, people feel more comfortable with the atrocities that befall them. Last edited by majorpay; 06-20-2011 at 01:55 PM.
Posted by Uzii, 06-20-2011, 02:32 PM
So whats your point??? Better to go with a cloud or a normal one???
Posted by majorpay, 06-20-2011, 02:39 PM
If you can find a solid VPS that meets your needs for resources with good support, and good up-time, grab it and don't let go. You will pay almost 1/4 as much, and assuming the hosting company does good resource management, you will have a solid running machine. If you are a Fortune 500 company or even a company that averages a few million per year, then you shouldn't even question it. Then paying quadruple for the same service, but knowing that service can scale may be worth it. However, there has to be an understanding that while cloud hosting is scalable, it's not dedicated, so there is still a potential to run into sluggish performance due to someone else within your cloud running things into the ground. The only way to mitigate that is with more resources (i.e. EC2 - but I hear even they have been having issues with performance). Last edited by majorpay; 06-20-2011 at 02:42 PM.
Posted by boskone, 06-20-2011, 03:29 PM
VPS - overselling. Cloud = Underselling. In simplest, possible terms. This is why cloud -should- cost more than a dedicated server of the same spec and a LOT more than an oversold, single server running openVZ or similar. There is not possibility of a cloud machine impacting the performance of another, unless the cloud is horribly poorly architected - thats the whole point really.
Posted by majorpay, 06-20-2011, 03:33 PM
The cloud being undersold is only a by-product of the insanely high pricing structure. Once the product becomes the standard (assuming it does) and pricing is forced to drop, it will be oversold just like VPS and suffer the same performance issues. Look at EC2 for proof that the statement that a "well architected cloud would not be affected by its clients." The statement is marketing smoke, and the same could be said for a well architected VPS.
Posted by boskone, 06-20-2011, 03:34 PM
It's not possible to oversell a proper cloud IAAS platform. For a start you need redundancy. 1 server with 24gb ram, means a second one just to sit there in case the first fails, etc. EC2 isnt a well architected cloud, imho.
Posted by boskone, 06-20-2011, 03:36 PM
You are right about price drops - cloud will eventually commoditise, until it is simply 'the way kit is delivered on the internet'. Then it wont be 'cloud' anymore, just a server / IAAS, which is the way it should be now, minus the hype.
Posted by boskone, 06-20-2011, 03:39 PM
Cloud - no single point of failure - 2N redundancy on SAN and servers - Instant failover for hardware issues - Hot migration of VM's around servers to avoid maintenance outages - instant deployment of machines and instant scaling without reboots - integrated backups and images / templates - integrated firewalls, security - full API, GUI, Apps for management and deployment None of the above come cheap - I would be worried if you found a 'cloud' provider that was actually cheap - meaning they wouldn't be very good, or half the things listed above would not work.
Posted by Uzii, 06-20-2011, 03:55 PM
Well i was checking with singlehop just now with the customer rep...they are providing good cloud and dedi servers...so i was willing to subscribe to their cloud server plan...it was worth that benefits and facilities they provide....what do you think?????
Posted by boskone, 06-20-2011, 04:06 PM
I think like anything, shop around and compare providers. Ask lots of questions - as cloud means lots of different things right now - so be clear about what you are buying and that it meets your requirements.
Posted by DomainNameInvesting, 06-20-2011, 04:17 PM
Really great thread and I'm proud to have my very first post on WHT being an addition to this thread. I've been doing a lot of research on Cloud vs. VPS. I was specifically look at Rackspace Cloud Sites vs. Hostgator VPS. I know these are bit different solutions because Rackspace does offer a server option that I could install cPanel on, however then I really become a sysadmin. Here's what I've discovered...feel free to let me know if I've got anything wrong here: - With Rackspace Cloud Sites and a VPS you get a certain guaranteed amount of RAM, disk space and bandwidth - The main difference between a cloud and a VPS is that a VPS is virtualized all on one server whereas a cloud is virtualized across "the cloud" or multiple servers - I can get a pretty nice config with a HostGator VPS Level 4 and pay about half of what I'd pay for CloudSites at Rackspace which doesn't really seem to offer any performance benefit - Hostgator will move over all my existing sites (huge cost-savings for me) - I like WHM/cPanel and with Hostgator VPS I don't have to keep paying for this every single year (~$450/year) So to me it seems like if you are looking at a Cloud Server vs. a Dedicated Server then I can understand why you might want to go with Cloud. However...when you're looking at something like Rackspace CloudSites vs. a VPS I think a VPS makes more sense since the cost is better and you get standard tools like WHM and cPanel rather than the super-limited control panel that Rackspace offers. It's my first post guys so go easy on me - hope this all makes sense
Posted by DomainNameInvesting, 06-20-2011, 08:36 PM
Cool! So I am starting to make some sense of this...the whole use of the word cloud makes everything sound so new and different, brilliant marketing, glad I'm saving some $$$
Posted by quantumphysics, 06-20-2011, 08:46 PM
what? why? ec2 is pretty awesome (if you know how to use it), are people literally setting up two vm's in the same datacenter while not making sure their app scales properly then crying about it?
Posted by ninkynonk, 06-20-2011, 10:15 PM
the netflix, the sony, the minecraft outages are all ec2 related. need I say more.
Posted by Uzii, 06-21-2011, 02:04 AM
Hostgator's servers are located at softlayer at dallas...and recently established in India...i don't know if its just an office or a data center but then rack space has servers around in data centers of asia, europe and america....i agree with you ragarding the price of rackspace and hostgators VPS...but if am going over something with Hostgator il definately choose singlehops cloud servers...
Posted by DomainNameInvesting, 06-21-2011, 09:58 AM
Good advice, I've recently had a REALLY bad experience setting-up a HostGator VPS. Placed the order yesterday and they told me it would be up and running in a few hours. 12 hours later - nothing. So I called support. They said they forgot to send the email out confirming the account...so they did, and then the email they sent had no password in it. Called support this morning and they said they setup the account incorrectly but support wouldn't be able to fix it I would have to talk to sales. So then I emailed sales and am waiting to hear back. Sounds like HostGator really doesn't have their act together!
Posted by Uzii, 06-21-2011, 01:17 PM
Thats too bad to hear...but hope youl get through it...every hosts have some drawback so does hostgator...but they are really good at solving a problem..compared to other hosts...but why did u choose a VPS over a dedi or cloud???? Just curious
Posted by boskone, 06-22-2011, 06:12 AM
Just to be clear - the rackspace cloud servers are actually VPS - they are on a single server with local storage. If that server dies, so does your machine.
Posted by Chris - Whitesystem, 06-24-2011, 01:11 AM
Really?
Posted by boskone, 06-24-2011, 03:30 AM
Yes - it's a common misconception that 'cloud' means redundant high availability with failover. EC2 machines are also VPS with local storage too, for example, as are linode, slicehost and many others. As I said earlier, ask the questions to be sure the cloud you think you are getting is actually the cloud you need!
Posted by ninkynonk, 06-24-2011, 03:45 AM
how are ec2 machines VPS???
Posted by boskone, 06-24-2011, 03:47 AM
How are they not? The are xen virtual servers, running on commodity hardware hypervisors with local disk storage... (you can add persistent storage and pay more...)
Posted by Cookiesowns, 06-24-2011, 03:55 AM
Then that really isn't cloud is it? In my opinion, and my own words, to name yourself as a Premium Cloud service IaaS or PaaS provider, you must have redundant everything, from space all the way up those instances running your front and back end. ( in between, networking, storage, computing nodes, power, you name it ) Many start ups are just hopping on board the cloud train, in order to just catch the trip, not planning for the whole journey is my way of putting it. Developing something as delicate and large scale of this takes time, that's why I'm spending my own precious time on this. Regards, Joseph
Posted by ninkynonk, 06-24-2011, 04:18 AM
Tisk. Tisk. Then who is a real cloud provider up in here?
Posted by boskone, 06-24-2011, 04:31 AM
Cloud isnt a definition - certainly not in a hosting/IAAS sense of what the hype makes people think cloud is. There are cloud offerings that do actually deliver, you just need to look around and know what to ask...
Posted by QuickWeb-Roel, 06-27-2011, 10:29 PM
Well in production environment you can have pretty much more downtime in the cloud as per VPS.NET http://status.vps.net/2011/06/ If SAN goes down everyone is down! We had some VPS nodes that goes over 400 days uptime i'm sure these clouds cannot beat it for sometime to come
Posted by farhan713, 06-28-2011, 05:21 PM
would like to see what boskone has to say about this ^^ Last edited by farhan713; 06-28-2011 at 05:22 PM. Reason: typo
Posted by bqinternet, 06-28-2011, 05:34 PM
For our own private cloud (not for sale! ), each hypervisor server connects to two different SANs, and data is written to both. If one SAN has a failure, the VMs keep running. Obviously it's more expensive to do it that way, but it's certainly possible. I'm curious how many cloud providers have that type of option available.
Posted by QuickWeb-Roel, 06-28-2011, 06:46 PM
I have rackspace "cloud" for external monitoring and it has over 200days uptime, only because rackspace utilize local storage instead of SAN, pretty much just like your normal VPS except it can scale better by moving you to better hardware if needed so SAN could be detrimental to cloud's uptime if there's no effective failover/redundancy.
Posted by trustedurl.com, 06-28-2011, 07:48 PM
It's not uncommon to get that on your standard variety cPanel server... edit: just read your earlier post about your VPS, 400+ days is definitely possible.
Posted by boskone, 06-29-2011, 06:47 AM
Uptime is just about planning. If you can contain issues to individual VMs or HV's then you are doing a good job as a cloud provider.
Posted by axces, 06-29-2011, 07:28 AM
CLOUD HOSTING: THE TRUTH???? The cloud is anything it seems. Its a method to sell a service and that's about it. That means the truth is anything. It should only be considered sales terminology. The better answer might be YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH, really.

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